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Magic & its users

 
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dph_of_rules
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 5:50 am    Post subject: Magic & its users Reply with quote

Out of curiosity, I'm curious, based on title alone, how you would rate each of these terms of skill and power in relation to each other? Oh yea, if I missed any other similiar terms, feel free to add those.

sorcerer
wizard
mage
magician
sage
warlock
witch
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Entity325
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 11:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

More of a fantasy question than Sci-Fi, isn't that? That's OK, I enjoy mixing genres. That's why Steampunk exists.


Anyway, the general power levels tend to vary by system. The main difference between the caster classes you've listed is usually not how powerful they are, but where said power comes from.

Sorcerers often have spirits to do their work for them
Wizards rely on material components and long-winded incantations
Mages use "raw magic," Mana points from within themselves or the world around them.
Magicians are those guys with top hats on stage with the card tricks.(alternately, entry-level for any of the above)
Sages don't need magic, they're just very, very wise. They may have been Sorcerers before they got wise enough to be considered "sage," though.
Warlocks use magic fueled by the consumption of souls and spirits
Witches usually brew potions in cauldrons, and are sometimes shown to have a patron demon, in addition to the usual Familiar.(not to be confused with real-life Wiccans, who I think are actually closer to Sorcerers.)

And don't forget Psionists, Shamans, Witch-Doctors, Technomancers(any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic), cultists, prophets, necromancers, disciples, priests, and priestesses.
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dph_of_rules
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 5:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't want to count technomancers/technomages, I'm going for the people who use 'real' magic.

What about the connotations of the different terms?
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Entity325
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 9:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

but how can you tell Techmages don't use "real" magic? What is "real" magic, anyway? This is a Sci-Fi board. You've got to include the Techmages!

Besides, in some settings(Warhammer 40K), Techmages do use real magic.

I already listed power origins. I'll let someone else list connotations. Smile
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dph_of_rules
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 12:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You know, that's a good question. What is 'real' magic?

According to dictionary.com, the definition of magic is:

1)The art that purports to control or forecast natural events, effects, or forces by invoking the supernatural.

2)the art of producing a desired effect or result through the use of incantation or various other techniques that presumably assure human control of supernatural agencies or the forces of nature.

I like that definition except what is "supernatural".

According to dictionary.com, the definition of supernatural is:

1)Attributed to a power that seems to violate or go beyond natural forces.
2)Of or relating to a deity.

But I still don't like where this leads.

Suppose you saw somebody appear to levitate an object without any outside help.

That's a clear cut case of magic.

Suupose you saw somebody appear to levitate an object, but you noticed nearby equipment that causing the object to float.

At that point, it's no longer magic.

When I think of magic, I think of using spells/invocations not relying on extremely advanced technology to achieve an effect.
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zortic
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 6:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not sure that even works. What if the person levitating is being lifted by a magic wand? That's a device. But compare that to a person being lifted by an antigravity field generating wand? Magic is often described as the use use of natural forces that we're not familiar with

It seems like the line between magic and technology is the same as the line between fantasy and science fiction, and that's that nasty word... technobabble!
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Arioch
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 5:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Entity325 wrote:
Sorcerers often have spirits to do their work for them
Wizards rely on material components and long-winded incantations
Mages use "raw magic," Mana points from within themselves or the world around them.
Magicians are those guys with top hats on stage with the card tricks.(alternately, entry-level for any of the above)
Sages don't need magic, they're just very, very wise. They may have been Sorcerers before they got wise enough to be considered "sage," though.

Says who? All these terms are pretty much interchangeable. It's completely up to your specific universe whether magic, sorcery, wizardry, etc., are the same force or not. Unless I were to refer to a particular milieu, I don't think there's any inherent hierarchy in these terms. All these terms have been rehashed so many times, and mean different things to different people... if I were writing a story with magic users in them, I would try to come up with original terms for both magic itself and the users of magic... unless of course the story had a real-world setting, in which case you're probably tied to traditional nomenclature.

A few more terms for a user of mystical force:

enchanter
alchemist
illusionist
spellcaster
druid
diabolist
adept
thaumaturgist
conjurer
seer
oracle
priest
soothsayer

zortic wrote:
I'm not sure that even works. What if the person levitating is being lifted by a magic wand? That's a device.

Sort of. The person is being lifted by magic that happens to be be stored in the wand, not by a mechanical device. Magic is (usually) by its very nature a sort of a direct manipulation of the universe, bypassing the laws of physics. The dividing line between what is "physics" and what is "magic" is, of course, dependent on the universe you have created. In some milieus, such as Star Wars or Elfquest, magic is portrayed more like psionics, where the individual has natural abilities that apply real forces (like telekinesis) to the environment. In most magical milieus, however, the magic-user calls upon an external pool of mystical energy (which can naturally abundant, like mana, or specifically provided by a supernatural being, like holy or unholy powers). In Star Wars, the Jedi abilities behave like psionics, but are enabled by an external mystical energy field known as The Force. This is a further blurring of the line between reality and mysticism. I think ultimately whether something is magic or not depends on the intent of the author. It's quite possible to treat technology as if it were magic -- Frank Herbert's Dune series is a pretty good example of this. It's also possible to treat magic as if it were a technology... my favorite example of this is Lois McMaster Bujold's The Spirit Ring.
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DrSaltine
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 10:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Other terms that cry out for ranking:

Shaman
Necromancer
Magus
Telepatch
Archmage
Channeler
Guru
Prestidigitator
Remote Viewer
Psychic
Medium

etc etc etc




These (and the others) are all terms for people who use powers that don't exist. Defining them in terms of common usage is hair-splitting, and trying to rank them or whatever depends largely on what fantasy world you are using. Even the very definitions of their powers depends on the fantasy world involved. You want to structure your world so that Sorcerers are the ones who summon demons and Necromancers use their powers to heal the dying and witches actually don't have any powers but just do stage tricks. Go ahead. This is a silly discussion. I don't know why I am partisipating, except that the four beers I drank so far today might have something to do with it.
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dph_of_rules
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 11:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The reason I brought this up is I've heard terms used interchangeably and thought there was a common system for why certain titles are used.
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Arioch
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 12:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Various RPG games and a few works of fiction have invented distinctions between them, but they're mostly just the names of different languages and cultures for something that doesn't actually exist: a magic-user.
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tbowl
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 06, 2008 9:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I actually had this conversation with someone once, when I realized she had a medium-type main character but hadn't gotten 'classed' yet.

It kind of breaks down like this, three types of casters.

Those who have to speak, channel, sacrifice, drain power from something, etc.

-Those who use it to buff/heal

-Those who force it all outwards in debuffs/attacks

For the sake of argument we won't talk about people that have some kind of item that allows them infinite channeling power. Writers usually only stick those in stories so there's someone to beat. Anyway, not sure where I'm going with this but take this as an example. Cuz when people try to find this out in actual games, the only way to find out is to take the gear off, etc... sooo

Let's say some high level ice wizard comes down and can regen his mana, has high penetration and hit chance and the ice itself does massive damage and dumps on someone that is his equal. In theory they could cancel each other out if they both summoned their powers exactly the same way since its magic...

However just cuz this high level mage can cast a glacial spike the size of a bus doesn't mean its going to do as much damage as if you had dropped an actual cold spikey bus on someone, so if a healer came by and had to heal someone up, the wounds (as fixing anthing usually is anyway) are a lot more difficult to patch up.

but if a shaman/druid/whatever channel's a gigantic spell, uses 30 druids/shamans/witches/whatever to cast it in the middle of a potent forest, bla bla bla and they get like 7 days to cast this thing, it probably the same mage a year to blast through it with his glacial spike launcher...

anyway i hope this helps with the discussion. i'm a tad loopy so i'll check back in a few days. still not well...
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