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Episode 15.....about spaceship/station/alien ref

 
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JjAR
Egg


Joined: 07 May 2008
Posts: 8

PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 4:38 am    Post subject: Episode 15.....about spaceship/station/alien ref Reply with quote

That was really intersting conversation....
Too bad that I could not take part. As the interesting theme of drawing of an environment has been mentioned. Or maybe it's for the best...... With my English conversation would be tightened hour on two, and even three:)

So....about Jump Leads surrounding setting. First of all I must say that I hate to draw the background....I'm kind of a character artist. That's why my backs are more often appears with a bizarre perspective (I really lame in perspective Smile). I like detailing art and I'm trying to put as much details as I can to the frame. The walls always with a bunch of parallel lines and kind of dirt and rust (Rusty tubes......my love). And that details more often is just for detailing frame, and sometimes they a pretty random lines and shadows.
Also I always use the colors not so bright and jucy for backs...More often it's just grey. The beauty of mechanic backs are that there not necessary must be some conception or reference.....Sometimes it's just cool with a lot of tubes and wires n'stuff.
One of my all to times favorite comic artists is Geof Darrow. Especially his work on "Hard Boiled" comic by Frank Miler. Darrow's mechanic stuff are so fantastic detailing and so rich of interesting elements, that I can stare at the page of his comic for an hour. That kind of backgrounds are inspired me to work on my oun technics....And that's why I'm often trying something like this:

http://jjar01.deviantart.com/art/Heaven-page-01-55292086
http://jjar01.deviantart.com/art/Invalid-2-19431472

There's not much of logic, or conception....it's just a bunch of details. And that's my rule....mostly.....and I hope it works Smile
Right now the problem is that the Third issue of JL taking place at the city....Without tubes, wires and other mechanic stuff Smile

About spaceships.....I don't know. I'm not really strong in drawing that kind of stuff. And I very much envy Jim's "Outsider" ships art on the first pages. It's really cool.....And that's what I need to work on in the future.
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ttallan
Egg


Joined: 14 May 2008
Posts: 44

PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 3:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow, Jjar, that art is pretty spectacular! I don't think you need to be envious of anybody! Smile

Thanks also to you guys for answering my questions in the podcast. I especially liked the suggestion of finding realistic-looking poseable figures-- I never thought to look for such a thing. Are the figures you use the kind I can find at Toys R Us, or are they art store items, or are they all Japanese imported anime figures? (Darn it, the local anime con was last month!)

3-D rendering program: I have no idea where to begin with this. Is there an industry standard, or is there some cheapo thing that I should get that won't drive me insane? Are the 3-D models the program builds meant to be used as reference, or are they meant to be used as your actual backgrounds? Crap, I can barely handle Photoshop, I don't know that I should even be considering this.

The architechture of SF settings is just something I'm always going to have to struggle with, I guess. Bottom line: learn to draw! Wink
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Chaos
Egg


Joined: 12 May 2008
Posts: 17

PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 10:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@JjAR - I think the wacky perspective works perfectly for Jump Leads... Enhances it, even. Also your work is awesome, I love it.

ttallan wrote:
3-D rendering program: I have no idea where to begin with this. Is there an industry standard, or is there some cheapo thing that I should get that won't drive me insane?

Blender is free, but will probably drive you insane. Smile Just from my own personal experiences with it anyway.
Google SketchUp comes in free and commercial versions and is apparently designed for ease of use, but I've never used it myself.
AC3D - Very cheap ($79) and looks very capable.

I generally use 3D Studio MAX and sometimes Maya, which are (pretty much) the industry standard between them. Both are extremely expensive and quite "heavy", but the most full-featured.

ttallan wrote:
Are the 3-D models the program builds meant to be used as reference, or are they meant to be used as your actual backgrounds?

Up to you! Jim uses the renderings as his backgrounds, but he uses nice clean textures to make it fit visually with the hand-drawn/cel-shaded characters. I'm guessing (@Arioch) that you render it twice, once with 3D character placeholders and once without? I notice you use/have used 3D models purely for character lighting reference - that's a cool idea.

I often use 3D models as a reference. Here's some crappy examples:

This is a (nondescript) page from the webcomic project I hope to one day have time for... That streak in the sky is the ring of the planet. I used a 3D reference for the dish in the background and for the front of the (bizarre-looking) ship in the foreground. I swear the ship makes sense when you know what you're actually looking at. Razz I've changed the design of it anyway since then. In fact I've changed the whole visual style of the comic slightly and started again (twice I think) since doing this page about a year ago.

This one's background is just painted straight out, but I used a couple of Poser models for reference when painting the characters. Here's a close-up. It's a horribly flat and unoriginal painting. Oh well.

I actually even use 3D models for reference for cartoon characters too if I want them to be completely repeatable... For a little indie game project I'm working on I'm actually animating a rig in 3D Studio MAX, then drawing the cartoon over the top. Also means I can draw them from any angle with no issues. Unfortunately I haven't got much online at the moment, but here is an old page of (pretty ordinary) expressions based off this 3D model, which I created/rendered in 3D Studio MAX. Here are the very first full-body sketches I did (in no time flat Embarassed). It's safe to say I've gotten a much better grip on the character since then (literally and figuratively), but you get the general idea. Rolling Eyes

Hopefully something out of all that was useful to someone. Razz
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Alitorious
Egg


Joined: 24 May 2008
Posts: 14

PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 10:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I love to spout Blender as a strong, free, 3D modeller, animator, renderer, compositor, etc... but its depth does mean that there's a bit of a learning curve, and many beginners find its interface unintuitive at first.

To me, it sounds like your best bet would just be to use a 3D app as reference, and in that case you might try Wings3D or even Google SketchUp. I haven't used either very much, but SketchUp is a great tool for architecture. You could probably move the camera around to get a good angle similar to the frame you plan to draw, then use what you see like a photo reference. This is probably the easiest, and you don't have to muddy around with complicated 3D stuff or texturing - just get the shape out and then draw what you see. Smile

If you wanted to use actual rendered 3D backgrounds, Blender is a strong choice comparable to Lightwave, 3DS Max, Cinema 4D, etc. even before you factor in the price. Wink
You wouldn't be limited to rich, photorealistic backgrounds, either. Many programs have shaders and options to give other options such to make it look like line art, or cell shading, or a pencil sketch. I want to try to learn how to use Freestyle, myself: http://freestyle.sourceforge.net/.
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Chaos
Egg


Joined: 12 May 2008
Posts: 17

PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 10:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alitorious wrote:
I want to try to learn how to use Freestyle, myself: http://freestyle.sourceforge.net/.

Just had a quick look at that - looks awesome! Thanks for the link!
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Selezen
Egg


Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 26
Location: Derby, UK

PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 3:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can highly recommend Wings 3D - I've been using it for years now, and it's one of the easiest modellers I've used. It doesn't have the most powerful rendering options, but for easy modelling and texturing it's the bee's knees.

I've recently started using it to generate the 3D characters for Battlebarge, and it's the only thing I've been able to get anywhere close to the results in my head when trying to make models of people.

Blender is darned powerful, but I've never been able to get my head round the interface. SketchUp is a poor copy of Wings 3D (unless you get the full version), at least from the limited exposure to it I've had.

Another app that gets some good reviews is Daz3D (http://www.daz3d.com/). It's free to download and use, but the really cool models you can use with it are costly (but you don't really have to downlaod them - they're just eye candy).
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Adam_Y
Egg


Joined: 02 Jun 2008
Posts: 32

PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 7:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alitorious wrote:

If you wanted to use actual rendered 3D backgrounds, Blender is a strong choice comparable to Lightwave, 3DS Max, Cinema 4D, etc. even before you factor in the price. Wink

It may or may not. My experience with Blender has been extremely painful. I can't run it on my computer even though I can easily run two other CAD programs. I'll compare it with Maya since I can get that for free through legal means. YAY.
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Entity325
Hatching


Joined: 07 May 2008
Posts: 57

PostPosted: Mon Jun 16, 2008 4:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I swear by Wings, though as was said before, it's not much for rigging, animation, and rendering. Modeling and Texturing are fantastic, though.

As an example, some people I knew took a 3D graphics class last fall, and one of their early assignments was to build a space ship. I watched so many space ships appear in Maya, I finally decided to sit down and model one to get it out of my system. An hour later, I had a fairly detailed model of an original-series-inspired USS Enterprise.

Actually, no, that's not true. I had a dozen copies of that model in an inside-out sphere, and was playing with lighting and shaders. The lab computer I was using wasn't terribly happy about it...

The wallpaper I currently use on my computer is a composite made in part in Wings 3D and Terragen, posed and rendered in Daz 3D, and then composited using Jasc PaintShop Pro 8. People keep asking me what series it's from... Rolling Eyes
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Arioch
Egg


Joined: 05 May 2008
Posts: 43

PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 2:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry for the late response on this.

ttallan wrote:
I especially liked the suggestion of finding realistic-looking poseable figures-- I never thought to look for such a thing. Are the figures you use the kind I can find at Toys R Us, or are they art store items, or are they all Japanese imported anime figures?

Any GI-Joe-style figure (12", 1/6 scale) with good articulation will do. There are both Japanese and domestic manufacturers, and some of them sell just the naked doll specifically for this purpose. Here's one such example, that sell a variety of different 12" dolls:



http://www.sideshowtoy.com/?page_id=4489&sku=1201R

Many of these dolls share common problems, including the forearms often being too long, and the heads being large in comparison to their skinny bodies (because they are really designed to be clothed), but they're still very useful. I also find a variety of more stylized figures (whether poseable or not) to be interesting inspiration.

ttallan wrote:
3-D rendering program: I have no idea where to begin with this. Is there an industry standard, or is there some cheapo thing that I should get that won't drive me insane? Are the 3-D models the program builds meant to be used as reference, or are they meant to be used as your actual backgrounds? Crap, I can barely handle Photoshop, I don't know that I should even be considering this. The architechture of SF settings is just something I'm always going to have to struggle with, I guess.

You can of course use the actual rendered output for the background, but 3D programs can also be useful perspective reference for hand-drawn environments and objects. The 3D reference object doesn't have to be detailed at all to be useful. Here's an example of a very simple model used for perspective setup (example by Feng Zhu):





As you can see, you could just as easily use a digital photograph you took of a pile of blocks (or your neighborhood buildings) for a similar reference.

Chaos wrote:
Jim uses the renderings as his backgrounds, but he uses nice clean textures to make it fit visually with the hand-drawn/cel-shaded characters. I'm guessing (@Arioch) that you render it twice, once with 3D character placeholders and once without?

I usually use a screen capture of the 3D preview as the template for setting up the drawings. The placeholder character models are set up so that they're invisible to the camera, and don't appear in the final render.

That's a really interesting ringed-planet background you have there. I'm curious to see what kind of character style you would use to go with that.
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